Curse

romeus petrus · Feb 14, 2008, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Hence the point. Anet gave us PvE skills like Ursan that are meant to be overpowered. This way professions like Me, P, A, Rt made it thru areas there where not generally speaking welcome into. That's what PvE only skills were intended to do, and that's what they are doing.

aapo · Feb 14, 2008, 03:38 PM // 15:38

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Originally Posted by lyra_song

zoning has nothing to do with the matter at hand. thats really a pointless comparison. Try comparing Ursan to some other powerful build.

- Ursan is just another overpowered build, exactly. It doesn't change the fact that there are other equally powerful and good builds that can complete DoA. There's even shows where teams of 8 Mesmers have completed DoA! Idea of your statement could be simplified to saying that every skill should be equally good and have same attributes. Otherwise there will be overpowered builds and you have things to complain about.

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Originally Posted by lyra_song

Ursan is very imbalanced compared to other builds. It has an efficacy that denies all other builds because it outshines them all.

- It does not deny any other build. Saying so is just false.

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Originally Posted by Avarre

I don't see how walking or zoning has any connection to skill determining success.

- So true! I also see no correlation whether you kill monster in 5 or 3 seconds to skill. You are not playing the game, your skillbar is playing the game. Your skillbar is the instrument which determines your success, using it correctly gives small margin where this much-spoken "skill" exists.

Chess is a 100% skill game since both players have same pieces available at the start of game. Counter-Strike is 70% skill game since aiming correctly determines winning frags, but arbitrary factors like better guns and winning team bias takes some away.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

This is something I agree with and have stated previous times, as well: Ursan Blessing doesn't help player discrimination. It may help class discrimination, but instead of no longer being divided by class ("mesmers? no thank you") people are divided by accounts ("no GWEN? no thank you.")

- While this is true, it's no different than age-old campaign discrimination. I wouldn't take Elementalist player who doesn't have Nightfall in his account just because Nightfall elites are so much more powerful than the rest.

Fried Tech · Feb 14, 2008, 03:40 PM // 15:40

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It's already been discussed that the "if you don't like it don't use it" point is false, since you can apply that to any major glitch, exploit, or overpowered skill. "There's this glitch that makes you get a billion k in one second. ANet doesn't have to do anything about it because if we don't like it we don't have to use it."

It's much deeper than personal choice. This is an online game, it affects people.

your right. a GLITCH that let everyone get a billion k in a second would affect everybody. Notice how even in your post you used the word GLITCH. Meaning that it was not intended to be in the game, or it is an exploit. But that is a whole other argument

Ursan does not have a concequence for everyone in the playing community the way that duping, gliches, or botting does. Those things have a large impact on the playing community because they mess with the game economics.
Ursan does no such thing. It can not be used to solo farm. It can not be used to gain access to areas that others can't get to. And it does not make everything insanely easy. It makes things easier.... but by no means does it make you invincible.

Please tell me how this skill has tarnished your playing experience. Other than making your cookie cutter build (which was also imba, or else it wouldn't have been the ONLY way) not quite so leet. In other words, again, how has this affected anything other than your epeen?

Avarre · Feb 14, 2008, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- So true! I also see no correlation whether you kill monster in 5 or 3 seconds to skill. You are not playing the game, your skillbar is playing the game. Your skillbar is the instrument which determines your success, using it correctly gives small margin where this much-spoken "skill" exists.

Chess is a 100% skill game since both players have same pieces available at the start of game. Counter-Strike is 70% skill game since aiming correctly determines winning frags, but arbitrary factors like better guns and winning team bias takes some away.

What do you think we're complaining about?

The idea is that all skillbars in maximum potential should be balanced, so that no matter how amazing you are at build design you'll be on equal footing. That way skill and how you use your skillbar count more towards your victory than whether you brought the right skillbar.

While this was already falling apart, Ursan is like a hammer to a sheet of cracked glass. It is one of many problems that create the situation you describe, and certainly not the only thing that needs fixing.

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Please tell me how this skill has tarnished your playing experience. Other than making your cookie cutter build (which was also imba, or else it wouldn't have been the ONLY way) not quite so leet. In other words, again, how has this affected anything other than your epeen?

Did it affect me? Nope. I'm not concerned about what it would do to me.

Fortunately, I can see the game in terms wider than myself. I understand how balance works, and I understand how creating power creep and imbalances reduces the depth of the game. This worries me because this is the opposite of what made GW unique on the market - skill over time, and balance. I wouldn't recommend GW to any of my friends because the overall PvE experience is largely lackluster - and a degeneration of part of the playerbase away from tactical and skill-based play towards powering through areas.

If all you're concerned about is yourself, you probably shouldn't be commenting on overall game design.

Dark Kal · Feb 14, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

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Originally Posted by Abedeus

Uhm. But 600 hp used to tank infinite amount of monsters without having to worry about anything. Ursan wasn't really nerfed, as people were close to monsters anyway... They just have to, OH NO! ENGAGE MONSTERS!!

Same goes for Spirit Bond it was tweeked slightly but it is still used to make HM vanquishing much easier, simular to Ursanway. It's actually worse since 600hp/smiter requires less than a full party to clear HM areas therefor allowing people to leech to get the Vanquisher title, diminishing the title further.

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Read again that bolded part. Again. And again. Still don't understand? Again. Read till you understand that Elite Area means that player must be better than what was during normal storyline.

I agree that an elite area shouldn't be easy but I don't think an elite area is balanced if you can only use certain cookie cutter builds to accomplish them and do not allow all the classes in the game to find a group. Theirby disallowing a person who might be very skillful (elite even) at his class but finding no chance to try the elite area since his class isn't popular. That's imbalanced to me.

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Sure it will do. But PuG's take ONLY r10. And ONLY r8 lightbringer. Wasting 8 hours (or more, if someone farms both titles from the beginning) a day so I can... Enjoy? Ursan? I was with my guild using Ursanway to clear FoW. Yeah, it was stupid, but we used 2 monks, 1 paragon (me), 1 nuker, 1 DS/Whirlwind and 3 ursans. GOD!! That was the most boring time I've been in FoW ever! I can't imagine what would be with 5 ursans, it would be even faster and even more boring... I mean if someone is excited about pressing 5 buttons blindly (no tactic at all, no skill used or required), then it's something not right with him.

Again just because something isn't fun to you doesn't mean it can't be fun for someone else. No one is actually forcing you to use Ursanway there are plenty of normal/other teams for FoW, UW, ...

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Paragon's could use TNTF + SY build, to make tanks out of whole team. Mesmer could be a smiter in a trio/duo or farm in Stygian Veil solo. And as a fast-cast nuker. Assassin's could try farming solo in UW too or use SY + DB/Moebius combo. Ritualists have even a Team Build in PvXWiki, plus their Shelter, Recuperation, Life and other spirits have an advantage over Monk enchantments, as they can be only interrupted by certain skills, but can't be removed as easily. Plus Weapon Spells are unremovable (Weapon of Quickening for tank/monks).

That's some nice theorycraft, reality was if you were one of those classes = no DoA for you since 90% used either the cookie cutter build or was duo farming gems.

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Don't forget - Elite Areas were putted for a REASON, that is for good players to complete them, not ursan buttonsmashers.

They should balance them out better than instead of having to rely on certain classes/skillsets cookie cutter builds only.

lyra_song · Feb 14, 2008, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- It does not deny any other build. Saying so is just false.

You are completely naive to human behavior then.

If you had a choice between a good tool and a better tool, what would you pick?

Theres a semi-sharp knife and a sharp knife. Which would you choose? Both can cut it fine, but you'd have to be an idiot, or really want to gimp yourself to use the less effective item.

People keep saying that Ursan is a choice, and simply their way of playing the game.

Guess what, your choice overpowers the other choices. Denying this fact is denying just how good the build is (and hypocritical to why you like the build in the first place).

People are compelled to play it, no longer by their own choice, but by pressure from other players.

Some players will continue to deny Ursan (like me) because I think it makes the game too easy and stupid. But I wont deny that its a powerful and effective build. Too powerful and too effective.

Bryant Again · Feb 14, 2008, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

While this is true, it's no different than age-old campaign discrimination. I wouldn't take Elementalist player who doesn't have Nightfall in his account just because Nightfall elites are so much more powerful than the rest.

But there were enough skills that would allow you to cope. With UB, nothing compares.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

I agree that an elite area shouldn't be easy but I don't think an elite area is balanced if you can only use certain cookie cutter builds to accomplish them and do not allow all the classes in the game to find a group. Theirby disallowing a person who might be very skillful (elite even) at his class but finding no chance to try the elite area since his class isn't popular. That's imbalanced to me.

It's imbalanced because puggers are mostly judgmental and/or ill-knowledged players? Any profession can succeed in any area of the game, it's just that inexperienced players don't see that. They're the same people who thinks Paragons have been nerfed to uselessness in PvE (which is the exact opposite.) You're essentially saying that it's "imbalanced" because inexperienced players say so, which is almost akin to doing skill balances based off of RA.

zwei2stein · Feb 14, 2008, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

...I wouldn't recommend GW to any of my friends because the overall PvE experience is largely lackluster - and a degeneration of part of the playerbase away from tactical and skill-based play towards powering through areas.

That is hell of a point.

GWs PvE is designed to be tactical game rather than "L99, u nub" game or "Come hereth, listen to my saga" game.

If you take away tactics you end up with very, very, very bad free mmo with no character advancment and no deep lore., because tactics are inherent part of GWs. they ARE gws.

aapo · Feb 14, 2008, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The idea is that all skillbars in maximum potential should be balanced, so that no matter how amazing you are at build design you'll be on equal footing. That way skill and how you use your skillbar count more towards your victory than whether you brought the right skillbar.

- I see. But how are you going to do it without removing all the skills from game?

Imagine if there was just three skills: Barrage, Prepared Shot and Archer's Signet. Then we would hear the same arguments as we hear from UB: "Barrage is just too good, no one even considers Prepared Shot and Archer's Signet when it exists in the game." ...although people can still use the other two just fine.

Then ANET nerfs Barrage to oblivion.
Same arguments begin: "Prepared Shot is just miles better than Archer's Signet, game is just stupid when you have exactly one skill you can use" ...and again nerfed Barrage and Archer's Signet are still there.

How can you say that the game is about skill when it's ninety percent about skillbars, and you agree with this statement?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

But there were enough skills that would allow you to cope. With UB, nothing compares.

- What works depends on area. Blame the area design if you can complete with only one build.

Bryant Again · Feb 14, 2008, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

What works depends on area. Blame the area design if you can complete with only one build.

In UB's case this would apply to a huge percentage of the entire game.

Nightmares Hammer · Feb 14, 2008, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

You are completely naive to human behavior then.

If you had a choice between a good tool and a better tool, what would you pick?

Theres a semi-sharp knife and a sharp knife. Which would you choose? Both can cut it fine, but you'd have to be an idiot, or really want to gimp yourself to use the less effective item.

People keep saying that Ursan is a choice, and simply their way of playing the game.

Guess what, your choice overpowers the other choices. Denying this fact is denying just how good the build is (and hypocritical to why you like the build in the first place).

People are compelled to play it, no longer by their own choice, but by pressure from other players.

Some players will continue to deny Ursan (like me) because I think it makes the game too easy and stupid. But I wont deny that its a powerful and effective build. Too powerful and too effective.

What he said.

Abedeus · Feb 14, 2008, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Is only me, or are the ursaners starting to run out of arguments? They are now creating an impossible scenarios to justify their build -.-

Dark Kel - you are all the time saying that only ursan and the trinity (,,cookie cutter'' build you are referring to) are the only valid builds in DoA. They are NOT. People created at least 10 team builds to solo whole or some of the areas of DoA.

Oh, and forgot that P/N can farm for Gemstones, even after Splinter Barrage nerf (replace Splinter Weapon and P/Rt with Mark of Pain and P/N). Every class you mentioned had a place in DoA, even my poor mesmer.

And you are forgetting about one thing - cookie cutter build is just a build that will work in the given environment. It's pretty logical that people won't run in DoA 8x W/Mo mending builds, just because it worked in general PvE. That's why it's an Elite Area - so players with bad builds/no skill can either get better build or gain skill, but now they only have to farm the hell out of lightbringer/norn titles.

And you are forgetting that GW is supposed to be about skill > time.

Aapo: Your dumb scenario when there are 3 elite skills is of course flawed, but here goes - Barrage is bad without more than 2 monsters, as it's a weak version of spammable Power Shot. Prepared Shot would be good in PvP as a spike build (rofl), as it has quite a lot of damage, although it's secondary effect would be useless. And Archer's Signet would be quite good in pressure build. As you can see, your arguments were void and frail.

aapo · Feb 14, 2008, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

If you had a choice between a good tool and a better tool, what would you pick?

- Better tool? It's a problem that something is better than other thing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Guess what, your choice overpowers the other choices. Denying this fact is denying just how good the build is (and hypocritical to why you like the build in the first place).

- I agree that Ursan is more powerful than anything else, but something always is more powerful than others. If you follow this chain and always nerf the most powerful thing, you're left with nothing.

Instead you should ask what kind of builds can complete area X to determine if the area is hard enough. If you make the kind of area where no build can complete it, you're wasting precious development time and nerves of players.

Abedeus · Feb 14, 2008, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- Better tool? It's a problem that something is better than other thing?

What if someone can use only that worse tool, because, for example, the other is too heavy for you to carry or too expensive?

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- I agree that Ursan is more powerful than anything else, but something always is more powerful than others. If you follow this chain and always nerf the most powerful thing, you're left with nothing.

Really? Look at HA - every time Flavor of the Month is nerfed/pushed behind, a new builds emerges. Desperate people always think about new build. You can just look at the Shadow Prison assassins, I think there were... 5 versions of that build? And it's still used, just a bit modified.

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Instead you should ask what kind of builds can complete area X to determine if the area is hard enough. If you make the kind of area where no build can complete it, you're wasting precious development time and nerves of players.

You are referring to DoA, right? People were complaining that none could complete it and they nerfed the area. And people could finish it before Ursan existed.

zwei2stein · Feb 14, 2008, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- I agree that Ursan is more powerful than anything else, but something always is more powerful than others. If you follow this chain and always nerf the most powerful thing, you're left with nothing.

That is not really what would happen.

The most powerful thing also can be hardest to use. Or require good teamwork to pull off.

There is reason why PvPers LOVE skills like frenzy and healsig - in hands of bad players it ends up as suicide. in hands of expert player it ends up as powerfull killing machine.

You end up with very powerful but hard to use skills that reward skill with power. And less powerful but easy to use skills that are not that awesome, but cant be messed up by players.

Bryant Again · Feb 14, 2008, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

Better tool? It's a problem that something is better than other thing?

UB is better than most things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

I agree that Ursan is more powerful than anything else, but something always is more powerful than others. If you follow this chain and always nerf the most powerful thing, you're left with nothing.

This is pretty much how PvP is, and it's been more of a blessing than anything else. But Ursan doesn't need to be nerfed, just balanced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

Instead you should ask what kind of builds can complete area X to determine if the area is hard enough. If you make the kind of area where no build can complete it, you're wasting precious development time and nerves of players.

You also have to look at other facts, such as who's completing it and who's having trouble. If inexperienced players can complete it, it's easy. If only experienced players can complete it, then it's hard. If experienced players are having a really hard time, it's too hard.

So, since now inexperienced players can complete most of what were considered the "harder" areas, should ANet focus on all of the areas themselves or at what's causing them to be so easy? Bear in mind that ANet would want to focus on the easier solution.

lyra_song · Feb 14, 2008, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

- Better tool? It's a problem that something is better than other thing?

Yes.

If one thing is better than another, it is used more. Look at home many elite skills are not used at all.

In a game where theres literally THOUSANDS of skill combinations, why should there be ONE skillset that devours everything else for breakfast?

This creates homogeny. This creates boredom. It is STALENESS.

Its a menu with 100,000 items, but only 1 that tastes good.

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- I agree that Ursan is more powerful than anything else, but something always is more powerful than others. If you follow this chain and always nerf the most powerful thing, you're left with nothing.

No. You nerf and you buff. You take away and you give back.

You refresh the meta and you shake the player base from stagnation.

You create ALTERNATIVES that are JUST AS EFFECTIVE. So that theres variety and multiple ways to play.

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Instead you should ask what kind of builds can complete area X to determine if the area is hard enough. If you make the kind of area where no build can complete it, you're wasting precious development time and nerves of players.

The design of DOA is flawed. That is not the argument at hand. FOCUS.

==============

I think the problem with this game is that some of the playerbase is so easily satisfied by shallow gameplay that they lose focus on asking Anet to make the game...you know...actually good.

romeus petrus · Feb 14, 2008, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Oh, and forgot that P/N can farm for Gemstones, even after Splinter Barrage nerf (replace Splinter Weapon and P/Rt with Mark of Pain and P/N). Every class you mentioned had a place in DoA, even my poor mesmer.

Silly me, I forgot how many teams in DoA used to spend hours LF 1 mesmer/para/sin/Rit before UB.

Abedeus · Feb 14, 2008, 04:38 PM // 16:38

If people didn't search for rits/paragons, it's the idiotic PuG mentality.

And he said that those characters were useless in DoA, so I pointed out that none of them are.

Jetdoc · Feb 14, 2008, 04:38 PM // 16:38

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Originally Posted by Avarre

This would be true if not for the fact the trinity build is flawed and inefficient when compared to straight damage dealing on a backbone of passive defense. This is why few 'good' pve teams run it anymore.

Exactly. I have no idea why every PvE team doesn't have at least 1-2 paragons in it...

Talk about God mode.